Meissen oder Samson Paris ?

[ger]

Hi
 
I have this centerpiece modelled by J.P. Melchior, the shepherdess reclining. I only know this piece as being produced by Höchst. The mark on the bottom looks like it is a Meissen piece, or could it be an imitation made by Samson Paris? Thanks for your help, Geralt.

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[Pikki Mee]

Hi,

I'm afraid this could be a little more a riddle than your question asks

ok, let's sort it out a bit first: you show a figurine group which looks like a Höchst model by J.P. Melchior
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[Gäste sehen keine Links]

I found 3 examples of the original 'Slumber of the Shepherdess' to compare with
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Your group shows slight differences - but even the other three are not totally identical...

It bears a mark resembling more Meissen resp. some of the imitation marks for it than (for my opinion) any of the Edme Samson marks, see also
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Moreover, Samson is said to have used special marks especially on Höchst reproductions, f.e.
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So...
1. could Meissen really have made copies of Höchst pieces? Is the mark a true Meissen? hm... I don't know but would doubt both at the moment
Meissen had also another pastoral pair see [Gäste sehen keine Links]

2. If it is not Samson nor Meissen ... who could have made it? there have been other manufacturers reproducing Höchst models as you can read there [Gäste sehen keine Links] >> Die Modelle Melchiors wurden später noch von ca. 1840 bis 1884 in Damm, nach 1903 Passau und von 1942-1950 in Frankenthal produziert. <<

Therefore I checked the marks of the companies mentioned
a. Damm was an earthenware producer and the material should also show in this case; the reproductions from original moulds are marked (some variations) like that [Gäste sehen keine Links]
b. Porzellanfabrik Passau means Dressel, Kister & Cie with some different marks for repros from original molds as well ... one example
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c. Frankenthal should be Friedrich Wessel [Gäste sehen keine Links]
>> Wessel also used a slightly modified but nonetheless unauthorized copy of an older Frankenthal mark << auch da [Gäste sehen keine Links] ... original marks see [Gäste sehen keine Links]
another mark [Gäste sehen keine Links]
None of them fits, or?

3. then some other maker using a Meissen-like mark? here are some possibilities listed below the originals [Gäste sehen keine Links] ... maybe some more exist, even modern real fake marks sometimes show similarities.

I haven't a clue, sorry... but I will look around on Höchst reproductions and mentioned manufacturers later a bit more.

Perhaps the information above can help you think a little further or someone else knows more about the matter

*Pikki*

[ger]

Hi

Thank you very much for your answer and detailed investigation. Very interesting information, I will try myself to see if I can find more.. but any further help would be much appreciated !

Geralt

[Pikki Mee]

You are welcome

the most interesting isssue seems to be - why copying a Höchst piece and then make it seem to be Meissen... that doesn't make sense really... neither a Meissen nor a Höchst connoisseur would go for it or? A non-adept perhaps ...on the other hand, your group is made very detailed and shows an astonishing quality also in painting - which manufacturer was capable of this skills?

In addition ... there you can see a figurine group supposed to be a Höchst model made by Damm or in Passau [Gäste sehen keine Links]

and another example of the original group [Gäste sehen keine Links]

hm... and another Höchst group showing a scenery like the Meissen Pastorale I mentioned above [Gäste sehen keine Links]

Perhaps you should contact the Frankfurt museum if they have information on this matter ... or the guy there on porcelainbiz .. he shows another slumbering beauty [Gäste sehen keine Links] and other pieces [Gäste sehen keine Links] ... perhaps he has seen something like your piece before... or the ppl from IMP in Sweden [Gäste sehen keine Links] as they also deal with Meissen and Höchst figurines

*Pikki*

[ger]

Thanks again! I will try to contact one of the options you mentioned, altough porcelainbiz asks money for it
And if I do get more information from one of these contacts I will post it here.

Geralt

[Pikki Mee]

Hello again,

I would try with porcelainbiz o.o. perhaps not to get an expertise directly for your piece, just call attention, indicate this discovered discrepancy and ask if sth like that was ever seen there... maybe a litlle discussion reveals more then... and yes, any information will be gladly welcomed

*Pikki*

[ger]

Hi
I got a quick answer from porcelain biz, it confirms my Samson version:

No Hoechst piece was only made by Hoechst as the molds were sold when they originally closed thus you find their models from all sorts of makers. This one is a bit odd but it is most likely by a guy named Samson who liked to copy all sorts of 18th century makers though it is hard to tell from these pics. Definitely not a Hoechst figure and definitely not 18th century.

Thanks for all the help!

[Pikki Mee]

Hej,

thx for the feedback ... ok, if Samson - for his opinion - is still in the game, so... ... I am still not quite happy with that and would - as best guess - also go for Porcelaine de Paris, yes, but tip another maker ... just due to the fact, that I haven't seen such kind of a mark confirmed for Edme ... but perhaps missed sth there

... some other possibilities to be checked could be
Bourdois Bloch [Gäste sehen keine Links]
E. Jaquemin [Gäste sehen keine Links]
Jacob Petit [Gäste sehen keine Links]
even DKF [Gäste sehen keine Links]

For the possible british maufacturers I can't speak, as I have no deeper knowledge there...

btw - I love riddles, mystery marks and other brainteasers... elsewise I wouldn't slob around here 8)

Have a nice evening

*Pikki*